Is Your Church Worship Biblically Accurate? (w/ Worship Pastor Jon Lilley)

Music is one of the best tools to help us memorize Scripture, which makes the worship songs we sing in church more important than ever. Are they Biblically accurate? Listen as worship arts pastor Jon Lilley explores the role of a worship leader and the impact that Scripture can (and should) have on the music we sing.

Learn more about Jon Lilley:

• Woodcreek Church website: https://www.woodcreekchurch.com
• Website Resources: https://www.thebereantest.com/
• Every Moment Holy on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3Q3feEM

Jon Lilley Podcast Transcript

Josh Summers:

You’re officially the worship pastor, right?

Jon Lilley:
We call it worship arts pastor. Worship arts pastor. Well, because worship is so much bigger than music, right? Yes. And now one of my jobs and one of my opportunities is to teach that, to help people understand that worship is a life and not a song yet it’s called Worship Arts Pastor, because the focus discipline are the art forms. And in fact, even just saying that so many people think of worship as the songs we sing on Sunday. And so I have the opportunity to expand well beyond that into any expression of faith that God’s given us creatively to share our faith with this world, but to say thank you to God. And that goes well beyond music, throughout the arts and then beyond that to what God’s given us a passion for and a gifting for in this world. So I get to encourage people to do that. I’m the worship arts pastor.

Josh Summers:
Can you give a couple examples? I remember being at Wood Creek when you guys did this art show, which I thought that was really cool. It’s like everybody, it was mostly everybody in the congregation that had art was showing it. I think that’s one example. What would be something else?

Jon Lilley:
Well, what’s funny is we only did that once. Yeah, it seemed really cool, but the reason is because I tagged on a concert after it and it was doing the festival and the concert staying up till 3:00 AM on a Saturday into Sunday that I was leading that morning that I was like, we might wait to do that one again. But it was fantastic. We called it created to create. And so that was an opportunity to see that beyond the songs we sing on Sunday, that there are so many gifts and passions and talents. God’s given people a creative spark. He’s put in them to share his faith with this world, and so that we got to just put it on display. So yeah, that arts festival was really cool. I think in other ways, I think it’s muscle memory and kind of giving people something new to join in terms of worship and corporate worship.

And so absolutely Sunday is a critical time that we come together and worship. But I’ve also found we do something called Worship House, and it’s seasonal. It’s probably every couple months, but we gather in worship in the round, whether it be in a different room of our church property or outside on the property, or even the last one we did was at an elder’s backyard. He has a big old backyard and we worship out there together. We have stuff for the kids to do with us in worship, but also they can be playing to, we want it to feel like this is a part of life. This isn’t the thing you check out of life to go do once a week, but this is the thing you’re doing daily and consistently in community as you’re honoring the Lord together in community. So worship house, really cool

Josh Summers:
Yeah, I think I’d been to one of those back when it was behind the elementary or the kids’ area

Jon Lilley:
By the playground and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Good

Josh Summers:
Times. I think that was really neat and I love that, that it seems to do your focus on not just the music side of it is it allows people that maybe aren’t musicians or don’t feel like they’ve got an ability to sing, which would even include my wife, that to be able to engage in some way,

Jon Lilley:
It provides a space definitely for people who music’s not their natural inclination, but being in corporate worship together and practicing worship in different and unique ways. Again, kind of challenging the muscle memory we have. It’s a big part of, I think what worship house and the other things we do in worship are about.

Josh Summers:
So for you personally, how have you been able to stay engaged with the heart of worship despite it being this weekend week out? Hey, this is almost like it is your job. Oh my gosh, man, that’s got to have been something that’s been a challenge over the course of the past decade or more that you’ve been doing this.

Jon Lilley:
Yeah. Gosh, what a great question. There’s no doubt that there are seasons when it takes a lot for me to get up there with genuine authenticity and worship the Lord. We call ’em dry seasons, whatever that may be, or just when you get tired of the road. I like things to change up. I like things to be different. And you look back and you say, wow, this is what 33 weeks I’ve led consistently and we’ve been singing the similar and same songs.

So yeah, I mean authenticity is very important As a worship leader. There’s a couple things I do to maintain that relationship with the Lord and relationship with the congregation that is honest and authentic. And one is we have this incredible, if you’ve heard of Every Moment Holy. Yeah, that book, it’s a modern day daily prayer book written, and gosh, I’m so sorry to whoever wrote it, I can’t remember your name right now, but you’re amazing.

But there’s one called Prayer Before Entering the Stage or Prayer Before Getting on the Stage. And the idea of this prayer is something I pray consistently and we put it on the wall right before you walk onto our stage Sunday mornings, and that is, God humiliate me for Your glory. Make this about You first because whatever I’m bringing to this pales in comparison to what You’re bringing Lord. And it’s in that moment of humility that I think authenticity can really lead. And the other thing, so that’s one thing I do consistently every week. The other thing I do to maintain that passion and authenticity is when I go before the church, if I’m not feeling it that week and there’s some weeks that you’re excited about worshiping together and you look around and you’re like, here we go. And there’s other weeks, you’re like, why am I here again?

And it’s in those moments that I think it’s critical as a leader that you allow yourself to be vulnerable in front of the people that God’s given you to lead. And you say, guys, honestly, I’m not feeling it today. Whatever that warm fuzzy is that I get, oftentimes when I get to worship with you, it’s not there today, but I love you and I love the Lord, and I believe he’s brought us here for a reason, and so would you join me in worshiping him? Whether you’re there with me or you’re not feeling it, or you came ready this morning, let’s go to the throne together then that there’s something authentic, even if I’m not overly passionate in that moment. Those are two things. The way I relate to the Lord way, I relate to the congregation to continue to lead with authenticity.

Josh Summers:
I think that authenticity, that’s one of those intangibles that maybe people don’t recognize when it happens, how much that influences the way that we engage with a worship leader. I remember at one point I was attending a conference and there was a lady who’s leading worship, and I have this, I’m really bad about this. I admit it, but she was not the greatest musician and it kind of bothered me as a guitarist, but she was so passionate.

That kind of went over my head at the time and I had a hard time, but I remember at the end of the conference, everybody was just going up to her and be like, that was awesome. That was amazing. And I’m like, what did I miss? What did I miss? And I think it was those intangibles, like that authenticity that she brought that I honestly lack a lot of times because I’m just trying to make sure that this song leads correctly into the next song and the mechanics of a Sunday morning that I would have a hard time not doing that. I guess. I

Jon Lilley:
Love that you mentioned that because instantly people come to mind that I’ve been under their leadership or I’ve led them who definitely are in the passion bucket or in the heart bucket, if you will. It’s overflowing and maybe the skill is not quite. In fact, when we do auditions at our church, we have 1200 membership. Plenty of people that want to be on the worship team or the worship team serve with that community.

So we have auditions and what I tell people and what I really try to stick to in evaluation of how we can work together, really there’s three buckets, and number one is heart. Do they understand what they’re doing? Are they passionate about the Lord, not music, but the Lord as they lead worship? But there’s another bucket called skill, and that’s actually really important. And there’s another bucket called commitment. And I really look for people who have enough in those buckets or are ready to fill them at least so that we can work together. But I’m with you. I think when that heart bucket is overflowing, it’s kind of like love covers a multitude of sins. It’s like a heart for the Lord covers a multitude of musical sins, I definitely appreciate it at the right places. Absolutely. Yeah.

Josh Summers:
So when it comes to music in the church, I know that for a lot of the congregate, I know this is just, maybe I should only speak for myself. There are so many times where I’ll sing through a song and I honestly hadn’t stopped to read the lyrics of that song in so long. Right? It’s just become so much a part of. So when you are choosing songs and when you’re thinking about songs, how much of the actual message of the song are you thinking about? Yeah. Does that really play into it?

Jon Lilley:
Man, what a great question. I think it’s really important right now that every worship leader, worship pastor, what have you, is in tune with this right here. What are we singing? What are we saying? Does it align with scripture? Of course, as we understand it, as our doctrine has laid it out, but is it accurate to who we are as a community to resonate as well? And if we don’t do that, if we’re just listening for the songs, that sound cool. I think we’ve missed something greatly. But I do think it’s more than just this song has good lyrics. I think it is. This song is aligning with the heart of this church community is drawing us to God. And so I think we should take the time to, in fact, there’s a website called the Berean Test. Have you heard of this? It’s so good. I’ll have to look it up. But what he does is he evaluates all the songs that come out and pretty much every song I’ve ever needed to go check on, and again, I don’t remember this guy’s name, it’s terrible.

He pulls out every line. He pulls out the thoughts of every verse and every chorus, and he weighs it against scripture, and he gives his own scorecard of how that would match up to a biblical writing. But also, is it understood by modern congregation? Is it understood, would it be understandable by someone who doesn’t go to church, who doesn’t know the Lord? And so it’s a great place for me to interact with someone on how accurate this stuff is and how valuable it is to the church community right now. So I use that for every song just to have that conversation with someone. If you’ll, there’s one other side to that question of how important are the lyrics and the accuracy in that stuff and the content of the song. And that is at our church, Woodcreek Church in Texas.

We have a preaching team. This is really cool. So we’ve moved away from the senior pastor model. Our model is a teaching team, and there’s six of us that will teach regularly. And then there’s others who represent other parts of the staff that are even on that team to bring input and to share with us and to hold us accountable. Well, what it does for me is a worship arts pastor, to be on the preaching team and to evaluate previous messages and to work on and hold one another accountable to future messages is I know where the heart of our preaching team is going. And so as I’m pulling together songs, not only is it great if it’s applicable to that Sunday’s message, but I also know where we’re headed. And so it’s been so helpful for me to gather music that speaks to the heart of where God is taking us in the teaching. And so I encourage all worship pastors to be connected with that preaching team or that senior pastor, whoever it is that’s guiding the direction of the content of the messages as well.

Josh Summers:
When it comes to scripture and memorizing scripture, I’ve talked about on this channel a lot and the podcast about how there are a lot of different mnemonics that people use, and one of the most effective and easiest for most people is music. I mean, it’s something like we still remember, I can’t remember what song that you and I were talking about. It was a Malachi

Jon Lilley:
Micah 6:8

Josh Summers:
Okay. Where it’s like you start singing that and anybody who grew up in the church is going to just start going with you because

Jon Lilley:
He has shown thee, oh man, what is good and what the Lord requires.

Josh Summers:
And so just having put that to melody, a lot of us are able to then it’s amazing, internalize that so much quicker. Do you think there’s a role in worship with, I don’t even know if it’s within a congregation or right now, it just seems like that happens on the kid level. That’s funny. And I don’t know, and maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong, if that’s translated much into the adult level in the songs. I dunno, have you seen

Jon Lilley:
That? I would challenge you there. Okay, good. Please. I think there is a lot going on in the adult sphere, but you’re absolutely right. It seems to be the go-to for children’s songs. In fact, nightly, all four of our kids will play a scripture lullaby playlist, and it’s made up of these incredible songs that help you go to sleep. But they’re all word for word of obviously English translations of scripture. So it is so common to have it in the kids, first of all, I’ll say usually though, if it’s in the kids’ sphere, it’s still getting into the hearts and the heads of all the parents bringing it on,

Josh Summers:
Having to listen to it time and time again.

Jon Lilley:
But I would say, gosh, and it’s terrible. I may not have a ton of examples off the top of my head, but I do think a lot of what we’re singing, or at least a lot of what we are singing at our church is not only biblically accurate, but there are several phrases and sections that are word for word or at least thought for thought with scripture. And if you really take a listen, challenge yourself to listen to what’s being shared in these contemporary worship songs, it’s not all just over emotional. It gets a bad rap. I would say over emotional songs about dating Jesus would be the worst of it. But if you really listen, I think conceptually there’s some incredible stuff coming out that is very biblically accurate that is regarding sections of scripture or stories of scripture. It’s funny, the first example that comes to mind is so terrible, so old now. It’s so dated. But Shane and Shane are so influential for you and for me. And they’re Psalms albums. They have two of ’em. They’re incredible. Maybe three.

Josh Summers:
Do they have three? Yeah, they might have more than now. They

Jon Lilley:
Have a billion worship initiative albums. But I think it is happening, I think tune in, listen closely, do the work of listening to the lyrics of these songs. I think you’ll find a lot of scripture embedded.

Josh Summers:
I think that’s a good point. And it’s one that I haven’t done so well of sometimes. I know the song is based on a passage of scripture, but I haven’t done the work unless it’s in the title of the song. I usually haven’t done the work. That’s good point to figure out where that’s coming from. And I know we do that a lot with the Psalms, where there’ll be something where the reference of whatever we’re singing in that particular chorus or the verse that’s coming almost directly from a Psalm, but I haven’t done the work to figure out exactly what it is.

Jon Lilley:
And you’re making even your question is a good point that as a mnemonic tool that’s not as often utilized for adults music, that what’s really happening in adult worship music is a synthesis of what we’re learning from scripture, what we’re learning as we live this life and piecing these things together. And you’ll usually find more scriptural imagery or scriptural short quotation, but not necessarily here for word. Here’s this, if I know this song, I know this entire passage with a few exceptions we talked about with those Shane songs, which we did, Lord of Hosts. And I went back and looked at it after talking with you. Okay, Psalm 1 46, Lord of hosts. And then I was like, oh, it isn’t really word for word, is it? No,

Josh Summers:
It’s not. No, not at all.

Jon Lilley:
But they at least call it Psalm one forty six. So you’re like, okay, I can go back now and connect how this song really is the heart of this passage and it takes me to scripture. So yeah, maybe a word of wisdom or a suggestion for writers out there if you’re going to borrow heavily or be inspired by a passage of scripture included in your title, because it points people back to the word.

Josh Summers:
Yeah, it really does. I remember, I think it was Ross King who put out an album of Word for Word, and it’s not nearly as singable.

Jon Lilley:
That’s, well, Hebrew poetry and English poetry don’t always play nice together. Yeah.

Josh Summers:
So I’m going move off of just for a moment off of the music side of stuff, but there are so many different spiritual disciplines that we as believers and even as a church can encourage into, right? You’ve got communion, you’ve got fasting, you’ve got obviously daily time in the word fellowship and all that stuff. And I wrestle with it. I am not trying to lead into this question, but it’s like what role do you think scripture memorization, if any, has in a church setting nowadays? Is it something we’ve lost? Is it something that is really important? I’ve talked about the Bible isn’t overly explicit about, Hey, you need a, it talks about write it on your heart. There’s a lot of things that we can use that we understand that

Jon Lilley:
As, and the example of Christ Jesus, you asked a few questions. Okay, I’ll start at the end and go backwards. Is it important? Absolutely. I can’t imagine thinking it wouldn’t be important. Am I the chief of all sinners in this? Yes. I look at what you do and what your community does, and I’m absolutely blown away in my feeble efforts to memorize scripture. But I will say there’s no question that when the scripture is in our minds and in our hearts, which really is the same concept, scripturally when it is embedded in us and we respond in scripture, not necessarily always quoting it out loud or spewing it, but when we live out the scripture that’s embedded in us, and not just a concept of what the scripture may be, but the actual scripture we’ve memorized, there’s no doubt that it plays out in fruitfulness, spiritual fruitfulness. And so if that’s not a definition of an important spiritual formation, then what is that? It produces spiritual fruit. So yeah, it is important. It has been set aside and almost like you mentioned the kids almost like, well, maybe you went through a scripture memory as a kid, but we don’t really challenge one another in that as we get older. It’s a really curious thing. Yeah. So glad you asked. Maybe I need to get going.

Josh Summers:
Yeah, I’ve loved it. We have a gentleman, I won’t say names necessarily, but he’s a great guy. He’s an actor in the congregation that I remember at one point, maybe it’s been years now, that he would go up and either recite from memory something or he would do a little play or something. And to me, whenever somebody recites something from memory, and I know this for myself as well, when I’ve recited something that is something I’ve memorized, it’s usually because I know it really well by that point. And there’s something about me being able that you wouldn’t have if I were just reading it versus reciting it. I even remember from this guy, James, I’ll just say

Jon Lilley:
James, it brings to mind something that is so real to me right now. And so if you take the practice of memorization and you apply it to worship leading and music, how different it is when you’ve memorized the song, the guitar part, the vocals, when you’re not looking at the back screen nowadays, we have the back screen, the back wall when you’re not looking at your iPad in front of you reading the chords, but it’s in here, it’s in your mind and in your heart, and all of a sudden you pick your head up and you see your brothers and sisters, and you see your piano player, and you see the vocalist by your side. That is a different experience of worship. That is a different practice of worship, application of worship, because the form has been put in my heart, and now I am practicing it with all of my presence, all of my attention. And so I would imagine that as that plays out with worship music, that also plays out in the way we worship the Lord from day to day in scripture memory. And so really interesting.

Josh Summers:
That’s a good point. I hadn’t even thought of it that way because yeah, if I come into a Sunday morning super prepared, there’s so much of a difference in the way that I even get, and I feel like, again, that authenticity, I think that they may not be able to articulate why, but I think a congregation can know if I’m not well prepared, because I’m not getting to worship as much as if I know what I’m doing and I can, like you said, lift my head up and participate in the worship with everybody as opposed to just being so focused on,

Jon Lilley:
Yeah, I think there’s a really interesting correlation there that plays out in, okay, so how memorizing these songs can help me in my engagement with the congregation and with the Lord in worship, how memorizing that scripture can help me engage with people around me, the environment around me and the Lord, when it’s not something I’m needing to continue to read off the page, but I’m reciting from the heart.

More Bible Memory Resources

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